Playescape, an urban swing set promoting safe space in our city.

FEATURING KITTY MACINTYRE-HYATT FROM SOFT SERVE SOCIAL, JOINED BY WCC SEXUAL VIOLENCE PREVENTION LEAD JAHLA LAWRENCE.

Kia ora tātou, nau mai haere mai… welcome everyone to our latest podcast & blog for Urban Dream Brokerage. Part of an ongoing commitment to sharing the knowledge of our creative whānau, in this case a recorded conversation.

LISTEN TO SOUNDCLOUD PODCAST HERE

Our call out in 2022 for people to “Lets Get Wellington Dreaming - Imagine your future city” bought us the idea of constructing a sculptural swing promoting safe space for our city, particularly for young femme.

Proposed & consequently created by 6 strong femme collective Soft Serve Social, the swing was installed in Glover Park for 6 weeks over Nov/Dec 2023. We took the opportunity to discuss the social kaupapa behind this playful installation with Kitty of the collective, alongside Jahla who leads sexual violence prevention at WCC as well is an independent advocate for that cause.

The conversation clearly illustrates the dangers that young femmes in our city face, as well the impacts of urban design & pop up features of this nature have on making a more welcoming city for all to feel safe…

Public theatre, art & tech with Olivia Mahood & Joel Baxendale. Transcribed by Una Dubbelt-Leitch

Image - Call/Waiting in public - Photography: Linda Lee

Kia ora tātou, nau mai haere mai… welcome everyone to our latest podcast & blog for Urban Dream Brokerage. Part of an ongoing commitment to sharing the knowledge of our creative whānau, in this case a recorded conversation.

LISTEN TO PODCAST HERE - or feel free to read the transcript below.

Not just because of Covid, artists have looked to working with technology in truly creative ways, the uptake is however noticeable in our post-lockdown world. Considered as another tool in the kit, tech in its myriad of forms continues to enhance & inform the direction of many creatives across the making spectrum.

In March & April 2023 we promoted the work Call/Waiting by OandP Works. A narrative journey through Courtenay Place, told through a series of texts, voice messages & image exchange. Hosted on an app called Pickpath that has been developed by theatre collective Binge Culture.

For Urban Dream Brokerage this presented a unique form of public storytelling, Call/Waiting provided an opportunity for the artists to deeply create narrative with the Pickpath platform. This prompted our conversation with Olivia & Joel of their respective companies about how both view their use of tech within the creative projects they produce. Enjoy…

JM - Okay let's start, so welcome everybody. Kia ora koutou, I'm here with Olivia Mahood and Joel Baxendale who have both joined me here on this chat that we’re having today, skirting around the subject of tech and art, and we'll get into the specifics of that as we go. So, first of all I’d like to welcome Olivia, welcome Olivia.

OM - Thanks.

JM - And to you Joel, kia ora.

JB - Kia ora Jase.

JM - Yeah nice to have you both here, thanks for joining. First of all, I’d like to start with you Olivia, maybe you’d just like to introduce yourself a bit and maybe the company that you work with and for.

OM - Sure, so my name’s Olivia, my company is called O&P Works, which is a collaboration between myself and Poppy Serrano. We’ve been collaborating for quite a few years now. Our tagline is live performance installations, so we make work across a wide variety of genres, but it's all live, it's all quite interactive and mostly focused around public spaces.

JM - Awesome, and what about yourself Joel?

JB - I’m the Creative Director of a little, I guess we call ourselves a “new form theatre company,” called Binge Culture, which I guess actually we’ve got quite a lot in common with O&P Works. We’re really focused on the audience experience and giving them stakes. I guess we have a pretty broad number of forms in which that could take. We’ve worked on regular stage shows through to kind of happenings and increasingly doing more and more stuff in the digital realm, which is a brave new world for sure.

JM - Yeah nice, and Olivia what's been your creative path to this point?

OM - I studied as an actor originally and right at the end of drama school Poppy supported me with a work that I was making called Boss of an Office, which is a one-on-one interactive experience and we've basically been collaborating ever since then. So yeah, the tail-end of drama school discovered, I guess I think of it as non-narrative, live experiences. I mean to be fair Boss of an Office does have a narrative bent to it. Yeah, we’ve just been building works in different genres since then from durational performance art, to public installations. Just experimenting and following what interests us, I haven’t been doing much acting but I’ve been doing a decent amount of producing and creating interactive experiences.

JM - That's really interesting in itself, you know... you go somewhere like drama school, in your case become an actor, and then often you end up not and I don't think that's an uncommon path. Have you have you got anything to say about that there? You know, maybe, you know the ideals that you maybe have taught to you at a tertiary education for creativity and then making that transition out into the real world I suppose.

OM – Yeah, when you're doing something for three years 9 to 5, you truly believe you’re going to continue to do that exact same thing for the rest of your life, and then once you leave that environment, then you have to reckon with what you are actually going to do with your time. I mean I could probably speak for a long time about the acting industry in New Zealand and what is and isn’t possible. But by the same token within drama school we were definitely encouraged to think about what kind of work we wanted to make ourselves, and I’m not a script writer or, I was never called to make that kind of work to put myself into more of a traditional acting context. I was always more interested in, better at, making the kind of work that we have been making.

JM – Yeah nice. And Joel, what about yourself… What's your creative path been? I imagine a fairly varied road to get to this point. But yeah what's your path been?

JB - I mean yeah we started, well how far back do you go? But I guess our training was at Victoria University of Wellington, so we did a theatre course there, everyone who started in Binge Culture. I guess we were kind of drawn together around looking at this theatre company called Forced Entertainment from the UK and it was very different from anything that we had seen or really anything that we'd been taught. So we got the opportunity, I think we were working on Ralph’s honours projects doing a copycat of that, which is basically just de-privileging the narrative and de-privileging character and looking at theatre in terms of its component parts, and looking at things like what is the relationship with the audience at any one point, allowing it to be kind of collage and all this, I guess it's a deconstruction of the theatre experience. I think that that philosophy grounded us throughout everything. Even though we’ve probably made a few, maybe half a dozen stage shows, or along those lines, before we started moving toward some radical departures from traditional theatre, or at least end stage theatre. Yeah, I guess it's that devising methodology that under pinned all the work and that kind of iterative making. All that's happened over time is that where one idea might have formed a 5 to 10-minute section in a stage play, sometimes you know they become whole works in and of themselves. I guess a good example of that would be Whales, which came from being the finale of a show called This Rugged Beauty where audience members came out from the auditorium and helped rescue some stranded whales on stage. And that became more a happening, it became its own thing, its own 45-minute experience or longer, depending on how far the whales had to swim.

JM - Laughs) Of course I remember that well down in Kaikoura which was such a crazy environment considering the weather and everything that was going on that day.

Image - Shared Lines Kaikoura: Binge Culture's Whales Performance - Photography: John Lake

JB - That felt very appropriate for the kaupapa. If not for the audience members (laughs).

JM - That’s great. And listen for both of you then my question is how important is it to you really? And why is it important to be presenting work outside of … in my notes I've got kind of traditional venues and institutions. You know we think of theatre makers very much there being in the theatre, so you have either of you or both of you could comment on how important it is to be presenting outside of that there

JB - I mean I can get very performance studies on this so I just feel like performance happens anyway, and everywhere. And if you can, if you can find a way to frame that then it just opened up so many possibilities, and why would you restrict yourself to a stage space?

OM - Yeah the comment about framing is interesting, cause I think one of the reasons we’ve liked to - I mean we’ve made work for theatre space as well, and in traditional venues, galleries but those spaces do put a frame around a word that can sometimes be, not undeniable but it's there, it’s pre-existing, in the same way wherever you put a work there will be a context and that context will either be supporting the work or fighting against it. And so some works, you want to put them in a traditional space or an institution, maybe because you're trying to shift the public’s experience of that institution or how they feel in that space. But sometimes you don't want to have to be wrestling that contacts in the first instance, you want to be removing barriers to accessing an experience, and public spaces can be a cool way to have fewer barriers for access and also give opportunity for people who wouldn't normally enter traditional venues.

JB - And I think on that point as well, if you set up a situation where people are familiar with the rules of that space, it can give them more access. So some people are really comfortable in a theatre space or in a gallery space and so no problemo. But you know, you can make pretty radical performance, but if its set in a space, in a metaphorical space, the rules know how they're supposed to interact, you can go way further. Like an example might be like a seminar or something, people might be terrified of interacting on a stage, but if they go into something that looks and feels like a seminar they might feel way more comfortable putting their hands up or even reading things out. So just quite a basic example but…

OM - Yeah, no, totally that's really interesting actually, cause with a lot of our work we built within the world of an office, the traditional office. Which, also similar, has rules and ways that you expect to interact and everyone, even people who haven’t worked much in offices kind of understand those environments and that has allowed, I think freedom, for people to play within that cause they’re like “I understand this environment and understand its rules and because I understand them well, I feel comfortable to push against them or ..”

JB – Also I was just gonna say, your most recent work was really, was a great example of that I thought, which the name escaped me sorry Olivia.

OM – Big Time Clocks

Image - Big Time Clocks by O+P Works for BATS Theatre 2021 STAB Commission.

JB – Big Time Clocks, sorry, great name, can’t believe I forgot it. But contrast that with maybe something like Sleep No More which I don't know like…. I've done a lot of research into that show having never experienced it, but I can imagine feeling quite like unsure of what I'm allowed or not allowed to do, whereas going into that, into your show I was like “well, this is this is what it is, I know the rules here.” Whereas if I’m in like castle or something, it's like what am I allowed to touch and not to touch?

JM - That's interesting and that was kind of my follow on question from this and leads into it, is is how do you find audiences interacting in these different spaces? And maybe you’re answering it with some of your previous answers, but yeah audiences, how do you feel they interact at a more traditional venue as opposed to when maybe they’re encountering some of your work in wilder spacers, if I put it that way?

OM - In my experience in public spaces, it’s probably less predictable how. But we've had some really cool, not coincidences, but interactions that you wouldn't get in a theatre space, which I think drives my love for creating work for public spaces. We did a collaboration with Long Side Youth Theatre last year, where we built a series of different performance art, public performance art pieces in collaboration with them. And one of them was called The Buoys, as in fishing buoys, and it was three performers with fishing rods, and at the end of the fishing rod signs, it said fishing for compliments. We had some people interacting with that work and practically you're staring at a man standing in the streets in Lambton Quay interacting with that work in a way that like I've never seen that demographic of person interact with another one of my works in the same way that they did. And we’ve also had just some cool experiences where you can surprise and delight people, because they're not expecting what they're about to see.

JB - I think, I mean to come at it from another angle. We’ve often looked to use the real-world as a way of creating intersections between in the fictional world that the audience is kind of looking at and this vast physical world with sort of endless possibilities. I guess putting people in, I guess the hardest thing to do when you're working in the real world is containing it enough. Because in a theatre you can turn out the lights and you’ve got everyone's full attention sound. But how do you keep people focused outside is a challenge. And there's a few different ways to approach it, one is to allow it to be something at some people stumble across and make of what they will and interact with for as long as they want and you never know what's going to tickle peoples fancy, and what mood they're going to be in when they are in that space. And then the other way that when exploring is to create, essentially shows, that are kind of a layer on top of the public space and that, I feel it can be really rewarding, but it's also harder to, cause people are there at a set time or even if that's starting with in their own time, it could be over a certain period and may be interacting with performers. There’s a lot more variables. Well maybe the same amount of variables but the variables are more tricky, people can’t just – you’re trying to still frame an hour long experience or something. But we use digital technology, (it) is a real help for that kind of thing, because it gives you that mainline to people's pockets. So you know wherever they are, you can access them through text or audio and more recently through a more gamified experience, and that can help just tighten the whole experience up a bit. But it's a super interesting question with ome billion different things to say about it.

JM – That’s good and great thoughts from both of you but your last thought there segways nicely to my next question really, which is, where did the interest and journey of tech come into your respective work? and maybe Joel I’ll throw this at you first, seems like from my observations that it's always had a role to play in, from my interactions with Binge Culture that there’s always been a place with it, but certainly now seeing where you're taking this with the development of Pickpath, and so forth. So where did this interest and journeys start and go for you?

JB - I mean it just with the simplest of technologies, which was audio, and the very first work we did outside of traditional theatre, or not traditional theatre, but at least a live show experience, was an unauthorised audio guide of Te Papa. So it's just a linear experience that guides you through space. And we were just really interested in, can we bring the same? I guess? It's a bit of a cheeky kind of satirical kind of view of the world. You know, is there another form for this that that works well with this approach that we have? And mean from there - it just it seems linear now, in hindsight it was just definitely groping in the dark. But it went from audio to, okay now audio, but there’s a bit more user control. So it was hosted in an app and then it was making our own app, our own platform so that we could iterate more easily. Without having to constantly go back to developers and republish and things that. And from there we were like “ Oh now we’ve built this platform maybe other people want to use this platform.” So we managed to wrangle some money out of the Government to develop it into something that anybody could use and that’s sort of where we’re kind of sitting at the moment. Although, even though we're still this developing this technology and we just have a debrief with Olivia and Poppy about their experiences using the platform – already I'm like “What's the next thing?” You know like, looking to this web developer in Singapore and being like “Yeah the web web browser is underutilised!” and these guys in Germany made a system for sending text messages as part of a show experience, I don’t know. The possibilities for where performance can sit is sort of endless and I think with new emerging technologies that we're still in that space where film was, where they just had the trains running at the screen, you know, we haven't really scratched the resurgence of what we can do with these new technologies.

JM – What about O&P, Olivia? What's your interest and journey into including tech in particular, in your work?

Image - Pickpath live - Photography: Linda Lee

OM – We started, the first kind of tech we included in a project was one of the earlier versions of Boss Of An Office. Which is a one-on-one immersive experience, you’re the boss of an office cubicle, a boss of a fictional office. In the very first version there was a computer there, and it was basically a set piece, and it didn't work and then the next version we got to use this cool game by this really cool game designer called Pippin Barr, who's actually from Wellington but he lives in Montreal in Canada, I think I've got that right. And he has a bunch of cool games on this website, on Pippin Barr’s website, they’re all freely available but we used a game of his called “it’s as if you were doing work,” which looks like a 90s computer, and it just gives you little prompts to type emails and that kind of thing. So we used that in the next iteration, and then the iteration after that we wanted to make it. Well actually, the iteration after that was a version we did as an online version of the experience during lockdown and (?) because of that and because it was online we wanted it to be more interactive so two-way rather than one person just playing a game that they could play at any time. So we rolled the technology back and we used Zoom and Google Suite basically, to create interactivity by manually sending participants emails and did screeds of work to create a bunch of content to be able to interact with them on those one-on-one sort of 10 minutes experiences that only 20 people got to experience because it was so labour-intensive. And from that, I think I still love that version of the work, but thinking about how we could use technology in a way that was interactive allowed the audience to pick different paths and create their own journey without us always having to do that huge backend and then, we know Joel. So we we were talking, Poppy was working on one of the works they were building with Pick Path and I went to a showing of that work to get a feel for that in motion and now we are here to clarify.

JM – Just to clarify, not just from myself, but you know anybody that is listening. How would you define gamification? It's a term that I hear quite a bit, don’t know if I fully understand what it means or how to define it.

JB - I don't know if I fully understand what it means, because it think it can mean a lot of things were different context but what I mean when I use it is like is that responsiveness to the audience's choices I guess, and ability to, responsiveness really and then if you think about the different ways that games give you know give you that, it could be is an element of randomness, or it could be that there's is putting you in the driver's seat, different pathways that you can choose to go down or just feedback I think to interactions that you as the audience do. Does that feel like a broad enough?

JM - That’s a really great answer actually, I hadn’t considered it that way at all but it makes a lot of sense. Olivia have you got anything to add to that?

OM - Not really, its not something I’ve thought much about before.

JM – Are either of you, Joel or Olivia, are either of you into gaming, per say?

JB - I'm a casual gamer. I jump on the bandwagon, my friends are into something and my computer can handle it, but I’m also very into board games also just games that you make up yourself. You know brushing your teeth game or whatever, I mean you can find anything, if you’re bored enough.

JM – Olivia are you a gamer?

OM – Unfortunately, I’m very into Stardew Valley but that is a rare occurrence for me to be that into a game

JM – What’s __ valley? I’ve not heard of ____

OM - It’s a farming game

JM - So listen, so this particular tech, I mean you’ve kinda alluded to it a little bit and I’m probably asking this a bit more of Joel, you’ve alluded to a little bit, your journey of getting here. But if we got into the teeth of, so you played with different apps, and then you decided to get to a point where you were going to develop your own, and then you’re able to get some funding, what does that look like? How do you put that together? You’re finding developers I suppose? What’s that whole process?

JB - Well yeah, I mean the first relationship we had was just, a pretty generous developer offered to make us an app for free, but it was still the logistical - not for free sorry, it was cheap. Probably felt like it was free to them, for us it felt like (inaudible) But you’ve still got that logistical back-and-forth, that's probably fine if you’re fully designing a system, and (?) go make it one iteration or whatever and then we're done. But when we got frustrated with that process that I was just asking around, and someone put me in touch with a chap called Ian Shepherd who’s based down in Christchurch who's a real game developer’s game developer, he used to run the association down in Ōtautahi. Yeah, he was just really happy to help us build the system that we needed to do our thing. He sort of was really just interested in what we were trying to do. Really first of all, it came out of that desire to be able to design that content, update the content without having to call them. And the irony of that is that now that we've got some funding to develop, I'm on zooms with him every week for at least an hour, cause now we’re trying to update the UX and the UI and the features and things, but I mean the app itself pretty simple - the amazing thing is the ability to edit without having to talk to him. So, Olivia and Poppy didn’t have to a single zoom with Ian, they just had one onboarding session with us.

JM - So, when you talk about that with him, is building and that kind of done with coding and such? He's able to set it up in a way that then you're able to just work with an editor from there, is that the right concept I’m thinking of here?

JB - Yeah exactly right. I mean it probably the most familiar thing people will be able to – or adjacent parallel experience is the Squarespace-type model for websites. Just drag and drop tools and once you've got your head around that, how the tools work, you can configure them in any kind of combination you want. So at the moment, we've got him to - imagine like every page of the app is a little node and then you can edit the node so that it displays different kinds of content, different kind of media, and then it has a different way of getting to the next node, whether it's multichoice, or you put it an input in, type something in or, just press continue. I mean at the guts of it, that’s what it does and then there's lots of other little features that you can do like, recall things, and little kind of ways to flavour that basic concept.

JM - Yeah interesting, and then Olivia for you, obviously you've got your own kind of path, I suppose, to this particular piece of tech, Pick Path, that's kind of got you to (inaudible). Do you just want to chat maybe a bit from that point of view?

OM - Yeah, what to say on that? I mean, we were quite interested in if we stripped out all of the manual stuff we were having to do when we use technology in our other works. We were interested in how we could expand the performance time, so if you had something, that was an app that an audience member could potentially interact with at anytime when they were in a specific space, you could expand the performance time so the audience could access that on their own schedule or on their own terms. I think – I mean the app can be used alongside performance, and Binge Culture have done some of that. And then, what we've been experimenting with, is the app and the participants who are participating' at the time are the performance, because we're quite interested in that. We’ve discovered that that's what we’re interested in about the app by working with app I guess, so I don’t know if there’s been such a linear path to that.

JM - Cool! That’s cool though, a nice journey in itself. Do either of you, I’m kind of getting to the last couple questions here. I guess one that I wanna ask, do either of you, for the sake of anybody listening, is there any kind of tech-based work around, and I'm just going to say the Arts here, that you'd love to hold up as an example, of beyond your own work, that may interest the audience or you think that is is working in a really interesting way or something. Yeah, have either of you got any examples? Both of you?

JB - Yeah, on a large scale it feels like people haven't quite tracked(?) the intersection between a live experience and a digital experience. People are still stuck in one or the other, even to the point where is like ‘if I want to do a show online, I'm going to be doing a live show and doing it somehow through zoom.’ Something like that where it’s essentially just a different platform for doing what you were doing before. I think there are few companies, a lot of overseas companies, I think that are working in this space, Rimini Protokoll have been doing stuff like this for a long time. I'm talking to these guys Machina X, so they're Berlin-based I think. You know similarly, they’re less interested in how tech can facilitate a traditional experience or a more classic experience and try and get to a wider audience, they’re just really exploring the possibilities of what are the performance possibilities that tech allow I guess. There’s probably a ton of examples, there's definitely a few people doing stuff that’s audio based primarily, but you know it might be delivered through an app or something and navigate to around spaces, like one step a time like an this which is Australian company. I mean, I think a lot of people have (inaudible) definitely smaller players. Can you think of any big examples Olivia?

OM - We had a play around with the app Karen by Blast Theory. I don't know whether you've looked at that one at all?

JB - Yeah that’s a good example, cause they call you, it's like a therapist in an app.

OM - It is like a therapist yeah. To my taste it’s not as interactive as I would like it to be. It’s interactive but you’re still kind of on the railroad tracks in a way where I think there is a lot of tech, there is always going to be some kind of track that the audience member is on even if there multiple diverging tracks.

JB – But yeah that’s a good example of, I guess it's quite old that app really.

OM - It is yeah.

JB - But it’s definitely a touchstone for us as well. It's cool. It's cool seeing people like Complicity playing with binaural audio with that show The Encounter. Which was felt like, even though it was quite a simple gesture, it was a true, your truly hybrid work in terms of its stage show, but it's also much of the work consists in headphones that the audience are all wearing at the same time. But yeah the people who probably making really interesting games, which are crossing over, coming at it from that direction, crossing over into the performance world. I’m much less knowledgeable about them, but I know that that’s something that game makers are interested in as well. So it's sort of like there's a meeting in the middle starting to happen.

JM - Oh I get fascinated by those sorts of, one of the things going back to the crypto company I was actually talking about they, I find it very interesting following their platform. They basically pay artists to come and feature in their games. You know generally that's musicians, but it also is extended out to visual artists and stuff as well and really that ends up becoming exclusive content, NFT style within it. And so sorry just to pick up on what you're saying they're Joel, its one of the aspects of gaming on one of its outer reaches that really interests me. How are they, from that other end like you say, how are they co-opting the arts in what they do? Even two examples that I've read about around where you know those games where big communities, the World of Warcraft and stuff like that, where online meetings will happen and I know things like weddings have happen for example. But people have chosen to put shows on and whatever that might look like. A performance inside of Minecraft be organised, so yeah, can't look at it from those different angles is really interesting. So my last question I ask you both to finish up here really is; where do you want to see all of us moving. What are your thoughts for this future? Both for yourself? But also, you know for the arts and maybe a bit more around theatre which is where you two (inaudible).Where do you see all this going?

JB - Metaverse, no I don’t know, whatever the opposite of that is. Olivia what are you reckon?

OM - I’m not sure, I know there’s metaverse stuff happening. I don’t fully understand that metaverse stuff..Yeah, I don't know

JM - Do you both, I mean obviously Joel you’re invested something like Pick Path and so I see that you will be continuing this in the future. What about yourselves, as well Olivia, you and Poppy, do you see yourself continuing to interact with tech-based making in the future?

OM - Yeah think so, I think it’s just about, for us it's always discovering Pick Path and discovering Pippin Barr earlier on. They feel like, not coincidences, but happy opportunities that then inspire work to happen because of the discovery of that thing, rather than feeling like we have a specific thing that we always trying to make. Yeah it feels like a meeting point of (inaudible) that we’re interested in working with, or tech that we discover, and (inaudible) inspiration springs from (inaudible) what we could make.

JB - Yeah it’s that kind of utilising, you see a technology being utilised in one way, and you see another way it could be manipulated. And then it’s just a, exploration of, I mean you can do that with the most basic technology. We did show with text messaging. You know, just liking manually text messaging 40 people at a time, and then without realising that will get us blocked off the network. I think when you’re working in this space you do see those opportunists all the time. Your trained, your brain is trained to seek out the theatrical in any opportunity. So technology is just no different than cool found space or a particular performer or performance style.

JM - So I guess to finish off, have either of you got any thoughts of wisdom that you might share with anybody listening that might be motivated to try this sort of stuff out? Or think about taking their own creative practice into these directions?

JB - I mean I’d just start off with, use what you know for a start and really get to the edges of what you can use, the existing technology that you able to already use and then see what other, like what Poppy was saying, see what other platforms are out there that you can manipulate and twist to your own purposes. But yeah, if you want to get real complex, find a developer or become a developer who's interested in what you’re doing.

JM - What about you Olivia, you got any words of wisdom?

OM - It's probably similar, we definitely have made some cool things using existing technology that people are already familiar with and has a low, we quite like working lo-fi cause it means that we can make it ourselves, and we don't have to have knowledge and experience that we don't already have so yeah, I feel like it's like ‘don't be held back by what you don't have access to or the knowledge that you don't have, just work with what you do and then, go from there.

Ngā mihi nui ki a korua, thank you to Olivia Mahood & Joel Baxendale for sharing their thoughts & knowledge… and to anyone giving time to listening or reading. Please feel free to comment & share… also take some time to look through our various blog & podcast content, plenty of creative wisdom for all.

Until next time… noho ora mai

On creating artist work schemes

For our final Urban Dreams Monthly discussion in this series we brought together Finance and Associate Arts, Culture and Heritage Minister Grant Robertson, and documentary maker Luit Bieringa to discuss the options and their own experiences of artist work schemes at Toi Poneke Arts Centre in Wellington.

This discussion was recorded and broadcast by Radio New Zealand and can be listened to here.

From the Phoenix Foundation to filmmaker Taika Waititi, The Pathways to Arts and Cultural Employment  or PACE scheme was credited with giving much needed space for artists to develop a career.

PACE was launched in 2001, allowing artists to sign up at the WINZ office without having to pretend to want to take on work in another field. They could get a benefit in return for proving they were producing and showing their work on a regular basis.

The scheme dwindled under the previous government, but now the Prime Minister and Arts, Culture and Heritage minister Jacinda Adern has pledged to explore the best ways to bring back PACE and explore other  arts employment options. For a  look at the history of PACE see this recent story by Adam Goodall on Pantograph Punch.

On creating creative capital with Justin Lester

Wellington mayor Justin Lester holds the city’s arts and culture portfolo and is dedicated to a “decade of culture” from July this year. In this Urban Dreams Podcast Lester tells Sophie Jerram about the $127 million that has been prioritised for the arts over the last 10 years, plans by council for affordable housing - in which he sees artists a vital part of that mix - and treating artists the same as start-up businesses. He also commits to holding Grant and Jacinda to account on Labour’s policy pledge to reintroduce a PACE (Pathways to Arts and Cultural Employment) scheme. This podcast was part of Urban Dream Brokerage’s monthly lunchtime conversation series, designed to empower artists wishing to work more as part of Wellington city. During discussion time afterwards Lester announced that we will get light rail in Wellington (no court cases willing!), his wish to see the four stop signs in Cuba Street in Te Reo Maori, and greater access of the Hannah Playhouse for midcareer artists. There was much discussion about options for a much-needed 500 seater-and-up venue, and a planned function centre with the need expressed for artists and theatre technicians to be involved in the design specifications. Finally, there was also discussion of the concerns about cuts in arts content in the Dominion Post and future public media options. The mayor says council are exploring developing their own news channel and would be interested in playing a more direct role in building more coverage for the arts with other partners beyond the printed newspaper. You’ll find other Urban Dream podcasts via this blog. We recommended you start with our last, a conversation with artist Kerry Ann Lee and choreographer Sacha Copland about the art of being in business.

Wellington mayor Justin Lester holds the city’s arts and culture portfolio and is dedicated to a “decade of culture” from July this year. In this Urban Dreams Podcast Lester tells Sophie Jerram about the $127 million that has been prioritised for the arts over the next 10 years, plans by council for affordable housing - in which he sees artists a vital part of that mix - and treating artists the same as start-up businesses. He also commits to holding Grant and Jacinda to account on Labour’s policy pledge to reintroduce a PACE (Pathways to Arts and Cultural Employment) scheme.

This podcast is part of Urban Dream Brokerage’s monthly lunchtime conversation series - empowering artists  to work more as part of Wellington city.

During discussion time afterwards Lester announced that we will get light rail in Wellington (no court cases willing!), his wish to see the four stop signs in Cuba Street in Te Reo Maori, and greater access of the Hannah Playhouse for midcareer artists. There was much discussion about options for a much-needed 500 seater-and-up venue, and a planned function centre with the need expressed for artists and theatre technicians to be involved in the design specifications.

Finally, there was also discussion of the concerns about cuts in arts content in the Dominion Post and future public media options. The mayor says council are exploring developing their own news channel and would be interested in playing a more direct role in building more coverage for the arts with other partners beyond the printed newspaper.    

You’ll find other Urban Dream podcasts via this blog. We recommended you start with our last, a conversation with artist Kerry Ann Lee and choreographer Sacha Copland about the art of being in business.

On the business of being an artist

“As artists and creatives we put our vision first, the artistry up here and then the logistics, the resources you need, the people, the funding… well it’s there, but it’s this kind of side platter.” Kerry Ann Lee We talk about things artists often don’t talk about: getting paid – why is it so murky what venues and galleries have to offer? How do you navigate sharing your ideas never sure if there’s moolah at the end of it? How do you plan so you don’t have lulls in activity? And what should be in that funding application This is a podcast discussion dedicated to helping artists do better in the business of being an independent artist, with two artists of experience working for themselves: visual artist and designer Kerry Ann Lee and dance choreographer and producer Sacha Copland.? We hope you find this discussion as valuable as we did. In the chair is Mark Amery, from Letting Space and its Urban Dream Brokerage service. The hosts are Toi Poneke, and in the background you will hear the sounds of Philip Glass from Copland’s Tread Softly installation in the Toi Poneke Gallery in which a live dancer plays in autumn leaves amongst an exhibition of photographs of leaves by Tom Hoyle These are two artists from different disciplines both interested in working in a variety of different ways with the public and communities. Kerry Ann Lee is a celebrated visual artist, designer and educator who uses hand-made processes and socially-engaged projects to explore hybrid identities and histories of migration. She creates installation, publication and image-based work and has a long practice in independent artists’ publishing. Sacha Copland is a dancer, choreographer and the artistic director of Java Dance Theatre working around New Zealand and internationally who believes in the power of dance to build empathy and dissolve the distance between people by creating dance that “clambers into your senses and gets underneath your fingernails.” This is part of a monthly discussion and podcast series aimed at sharing and networking across the arts, with a mission to empower and resource artists to create work outside conventional venues as part of wellington city.

“As artists and creatives we put our vision first, the artistry up here and then the logistics, the resources you need, the people, the funding…  well it’s there, but it’s this kind of side platter.” Kerry Ann Lee

We talk about things artists often don’t talk about: getting paid – why is it so murky what venues and galleries have to offer? How do you navigate sharing your ideas never sure if there’s moolah at the end of it? How do you plan so you don’t have lulls in activity? And what should be in that funding application

This is a podcast discussion dedicated to helping artists do better in the business of being an independent artist, with two artists of experience working for themselves: visual artist and designer Kerry Ann Lee and dance choreographer and producer Sacha Copland.? We hope you find this discussion as valuable as we did.

In the chair is Mark Amery, from Letting Space and its Urban Dream Brokerage service. The hosts are Toi Poneke, and in the background you will hear the sounds of Philip Glass from Copland’s Tread Softly installation in the Toi Poneke Gallery in which a live dancer plays in autumn leaves amongst an exhibition of photographs of leaves by Tom Hoyle

These are two artists from different disciplines both interested in working in a variety of different ways with the public and communities. Kerry Ann Lee is a celebrated visual artist, designer and educator who uses hand-made processes and socially-engaged projects to explore hybrid identities and histories of migration. She creates installation, publication and image-based work and has a long practice in independent artists’ publishing. Sacha Copland is a dancer, choreographer and the artistic director of Java Dance Theatre working around New Zealand and internationally who believes in the power of dance to build empathy and dissolve the distance between people by creating dance that “clambers into your senses and gets underneath your fingernails.”

This is part of a monthly discussion and podcast series aimed at sharing and networking across the arts, with a mission to empower and resource artists to create work outside conventional venues as part of wellington city.

Our next discussion at Toi Poneke is May 8, 12.30-2pm, ‘On creating creative capital’ with mayor Justin Lester. A discussion with our mayor who holds the arts and culture portfolio on what is needed to take our creative scene to the next level.

On artist residencies in workplaces

Citizen Water Map Lab, Julian Priest, Common Ground Public Art Festival 2017. Image: Dionne Ward.

Tracking a satellite in a tragic death spiral and getting to delete your personal information, or getting workers to not have to feel like they have to pretend they know what they're doing all the time - art and business and art and science: in this interview from the  Urban Dreams Monthly lunches at Toi Poneke Wellington in March we hear from artist Julian Priest and theatremaker Leo-Gene Peters (from company A Slightly Isolated Dog) about two very different fledgling Wellington residencies that embed artists in the workplace. 

Julian Priest at Thomas King Observatory, Wellington Botanic Gardens: “This residency came out of a conversation I had with Tamsin Falconer at the Carter Observatory about something we might do together. We had about 20 or 30 good ideas in this conversation and at one point I think I said: “Is there something in that little building at the top of the Botanic Gardens?” And it turned out it was being used as a storage area. So we went through a quite informal process and later realised it had the makings of a residency space.

“I was there informally for a couple of months late last year testing antennae, and then we started formalising the process and getting the building into a place where it could be used as a public space. Now I am artist in residence at the Thomas King Observatory. It’s been a very ‘Letting Space’ way of working. This is a quite small shed-like 1912 observatory with a beautiful wooden dome looking out over the city - it’s a fantastic place. What I’ve brought to it is an existing project, partly now being funded by the Wellington City Council Public Art Panel, that has been running for a number of years.

"It is an artwork called The Weight of Information. Basically, it’s a very small satellite which is put into orbit. I’m using a tiny two-centimetre satellite as material for a participatory artwork. The project was first launched in 2014 when I was living in Whanganui and we did about 20 different international events around this, the satellite launch, some involving schools, some in galleries. The satellite did get into space but unfortunately it malfunctioned and so we will launch again later this year.

“The observatory is the perfect place for this project because the satellite itself is in space – you can’t see it, it’s spinning around the Earth – but what you can do is track it. I am building a robot radio antennae in the dome and staging a series of participatory events called Meet to Delete. The idea is that the satellite is like a tragic hero in the classical sense who is unfortunately pulled back down to earth in a tragic death spiral by gravity, so he is trying to stay in space, trying to ascend by forgetting things. He collects information through sensors, getting in all the information he can and immediately erases it. He hopes by deleting all this information that he’s going to ascend into the heavens, in some kind of anti-rational transcendence. On Earth I’m inviting people to the observatory to shred their documents to make the world a little lighter.

“We ran these events before and people turned up with whatever personal information they wanted to let go of. It was kind of cathartic for people. They brought quite personal documents, including bank statements with someone’s first ever mortgage payments and someone else burnt four boxes of documents of the legal proceedings of their divorce. All going well sometime after July this rocket will again launch and the satellite will go into space and flawlessly work!

“It may sound silly but there is a serious edge to it. It’s not a science residency but its a project that aims to do speculative physics with social commentary and art involving the public.”

Leo Gene Peters (A Slightly Isolated Dog) at Creative HQ: “We became artists in residence at Creative HQ mid last year, when Stefan the CE there had a conversation with Brian Steele from Giddy Up about wanting an artist in residence. Since its been a pretty loose, organic process. We said that we really didn’t know what we would do and he said “Sounds good, let’s figure it out”. I’ve been in and out of the city so I’ve come back in and out and we’ve done little bits and pieces of work over that time facilitating revisioning they’ve been doing.

“It’s been a long term vision for us and our producer Angela Green - who is just finishing her MBA after years working in the theatre as an actor and in producing and arts management - to explore how arts and business can talk to one another. We need to have a meaningful crossover and relationship between art and business, because there’s not. So we’ve been dreaming about how we do that. The residency at Creative HQ is a perfect fit. It’s nice to get to know people and slowly connect, and now we’ve come back we are running a project with them where we are creating a professional development programme which is also a show, over eight weeks with their staff and different clients - different accelerator and incubator programmes.

“We kind of know what the form of it is going to be, we’re getting closer, but its a pilot programme for us and for them. We’ve had lots of conversations and they are very supportive and keen to see it as one aspect in the future of how they want their company to go – using creative resources, artists and different modes of working to grow and progress their own models. That’s it in a nutshell.

“We’re going to do a show in progress in May – whew! – in the little studio at BATS. The work is very conversational, so the entire notion of the work is that we come together and we have a show but we use the form of conversation as a storytelling tool as well as a way of meeting, evolving it as we go. So for the first half hour with you it may feel like we’re just having a conversation and then we find ways of incorporating material into existing structures. That’s roughly the form we are exploring as we do this residency.”

What might these residencies evolve into? Thinking ahead, thinking big.

Leo Gene Peters: “I’d like to be making with Creative HQ in partnership for the rest of our career. That’s what I’d like - working in partnership as much as is useful for us and them, and so we can also roll out programmes on our own. I’ve done a lot of work with communities over the last 20 years, lots of youth focused stuff, with refugees and we worked in residence with Hospice for a while, which was beautiful, mindblowing. To me that work is about how we use what we do to give us different kind of places where we can reflect, celebrate together and meaningfully connect. Where we can sit together, sit with our loneliness and not be ashamed of it – about how we are all lost. That is so useful for me and that we can do that with a pretty cool, progressive group. Its lovely to just feel them shift a little bit, to feel the plates shift in the way people listen to each other.”

Julian Priest:  “It’s probably the most productive space I’ve been in in Wellington. I think it’s something to do with it being a beautiful place, with amazing support. We haven’t got a financial arrangement yet but the support of the crew up there is fantastic, a very generous organisation. In terms of the future, it’s very unusual for me to be in residency because I never go to them these days. I used to go on short ones, but with a family it’s harder to find the time. There are some fantastic overseas art/science residences, like with the Hadron Collider, at the South Pole, with the ESA. So a residency that I can do in the city is a real treat.

“As far as the observatory goes, while I would love to stay there forever my vision for it is more as a site for other people to be resident. This is the crash test dummy phase for whether the Thomas King could become a permanent art/science residency space. I don’t think there’s another permanent one in New Zealand (there are a couple of short term art science residencies of which SCANZ is the best known). It’s a really good site for it because there’s the Botanic Garden for the life/ science side, the Carter observatory with the physical sciences and astronomy and its public science communication agenda, then there’s the Metservice just down the road, and it’s almost on the Victoria University Kelburn campus.”

“It’s the ability to model vulnerability with strength. Of modelling that process of risking and it falling down and then asking why did it fall down.”

On the tension between being given a space you’re able to do what you wish with, as a form of social generosity and working with an organisation with a need for outputs, structure and giving back value.

Leo-Gene Peters: “We’ve been dreaming and thinking about this kind of residency for... well I mean we were resident at Downstage Theatre before it fell over. And while we there we were exploring how we could work with people there. So we’ve always been about the outcome. Like, how do you frame it so that its outcome focussed? How can you speak in a language that people in the corporate world know what you’re on about? We’re still working out how we do it. How we can be practical and specific and responsive enough.

“These guys (Creative HQ) get it because they’re agile, but it’s still them saying “can you send us your blurb, its due on Thursday?” The thing is we can, but its just trying to articulate it. Ultimately I want to say “just come” - that we’ll take them through our process, but I’m not sure if anyone will turn up. If they don’t know what they’re doing they’re apprehensive. And of course if you’re trying to sell a programme to someone, they want to know an outcome.  It’s about how you respond to the specific needs of a specific group.”

On the odd situation of being in an office and going up to people going ‘Hi, I’m your artist in residence”

Leo-Gene Peters: “Well in this instance they’re used to this kind of stuff, they really like it. Some of them come up and introduce themselves to us. But it is a question of how you interrupt their day. Like they’re in the middle of that email they have to send because their deadlines up and I come up. So it’s constantly feeling out how we do more of that - because its useful to break the day. Not to mess with people, but to to take a moment before we move onto the next thing. Its working out how you propose it.

Julian Priest: “In terms of immediate value we’ve been trying to get the building fit for purpose. We’ve been looking at how to renovate so it can be activated again, because it hasn’t been used for quite a few years.”

“Using an organisation as material. I’m trying to imagine what that might look like in some some other organisations, like a government department where you’re messing with the bureaucracy slightly!

“My works often have this participatory structure but while there’s no script they are authored. For instance this one we did up in the Hutt in the water festival Common Ground, we built a public access water testing laboratory. People would bring water samples in, and we’d test them together and build a map of local water quality. So I was acting like a scientist and I got everyone to put lab coats on and be scientists and do some science, do some micro-biology. But I don’t think I’ve ever done that within an existing organisation. At the observatory it’s been quite informal and is evolving, but it’s more physically like trying to start a new business or gallery space together. We’ve just been cleared for public use and we’re now in the process of starting to invite people in.”

Leo Gene Peters: “At Creative HQ they’re interested in the creative problem solving. In being able to revision the thing or shift process drastically, on a dime. To risk something. And then fail, and be okay with failing, and then go ‘Cool, how do we evolve’. That’s the thing I think they like about us. They want to work differently.

“I pitched it once to them as a moment where we’re vulnerable together. It’s like the story of me walking into the first session I ever ran with Creative HQ going to myself ‘they’re all going to figure out I’m a fraud!’ And I’m like “Outcomes” and “KPIs” to them, and then I just stopped and went to myself ‘you’re not doing that’. So we started playing games and they were reticent at first and then really got into it. It’s that moment of being able to go “I don’t know what I’m doing. Has anyone else been in a moment where they don’t know what they’re doing?” And people, say, yeah, all the time. We pretend all the time.

“So, they’re really excited by that I think – the ability to not have to pretend that you know what you’re doing and figure out how you do it together. It’s the ability to model vulnerability with strength. Of modelling that process of risking and it falling down and then asking why did it fall down.”

On producing across arts disciplines

The producers behind two of the most innovative art events in Wellington in recent years, Litcrawl and Lōemis, Andrew Laking and Claire Mabey aka Pirate and Queen talk about running an independent production company, making it sustainable and making it financial (or not!)

A short podcast: the producers behind two of the most exciting out of the box arts events in Wellington in recent years, Litcrawl and Lōemis, Andrew Laking and Claire Mabey aka Pirate and Queen talk about running an independent arts production company, making it sustainable and making it financial (or not!).

The conversation chaired by Mark Amery and held at Toi Poneke is part of the Urban Dreams Monthly series, which has a mission to help empower and provide networking for artists interested in working outside of conventional venues in Wellington. To keep in touch with upcoming lunches join our Facebook page. You can keep up to date with Toi Poneke here.  

On performing in public space: Joel Baxendale (Binge Culture Collective) and Robyn Jordaan

Recorded as part of Performance Art Week Aotearoa 2017 at Te Aro Park, Wellington, original site of Te Aro Pa and an artwork by Shona Rapira Davies, performance artist Robyn Jordaan and Joel Baxendale of Binge Culture Collective discuss the strengths, and politics of working in public space with Mark Amery. Part of a monthly conversation series, organised by Urban Dream Brokerage creating conversation and networking around arts across disciplines working in new spaces. Image: Robyn Jordaan, by Gabrielle McKone.

Recorded as part of Performance Art Week Aotearoa late 2017 at Te Aro Park, Wellington, original site of Te Aro Pa and a public artwork by Shona Rapira Davies, Aucland performance artist Robyn Jordaan and Joel Baxendale of Binge Culture Collective briefly discuss the strengths and politics of working in public space. Jordaan was in Wellington to perform at Performance Art Week in Island Bay Park, while Binge Culture had returned to Wellington from Edinburgh with their park-based participatory work Ancient Shrines and Half-Truths. Binge Culture Collective’s next production is with Barbarian Productions It’s a Trial in Auckland on 22 February 2018. Our apologies for some Wellington public space wind and traffic noise.

The conversation was part of Urban Dreams a monthly conversation series, organised by Urban Dream Brokerage creating conversation and networking around arts across disciplines working in new spaces. Image: Robyn Jordaan, by Gabrielle McKone. A library of pocasts of the initial discussions in the series can be found here.

On creating collaborative creative space: Jessica Halliday and Sam Trubridge

Jessica Halliday (FESTA Christchurch) and Sam Trubridge (Performance Arcade and the Playground, Wellington) discuss the creation by artists of common collaborative development and presentation spaces, the dearth of affordable spaces for artists in Christchurch, past spaces Performance Lab and the Print Factory in Wellington and issues today with finding space. This discussion was held as part of Shared Lines: Wellington with dialogue between Christchurch and Wellington. The programme for Performance Arcade 2018 may be found here and more info on FESTA here.

Jessica Halliday (FESTA Christchurch) and Sam Trubridge (Performance Arcade and the Playground, Wellington) discuss the creation by artists of common collaborative development and presentation spaces, the dearth of affordable spaces for artists in Christchurch, past spaces Performance Lab and the Print Factory in Wellington and issues today with finding space. The discussion this month was held as part of Shared Lines: Wellington with dialogue between Christchurch and Wellington.

On creating enduring artist run space with Jo Randerson and Jordana Bragg

“…we gave ourselves a name and that amplified our purpose” Jordana Bragg

“…find ways to take those financial stresses off of yourself because they tax your mental bandwidth” Jo Randerson

In this edition of our 2017 monthly Urban Dreams series, empowering artists to work as part of their city, we share a conversation between Wellington theatremaker and Vogemorn Bowling Club artist space cofounder Jo Randerson and artist and artist space meanwhile co-founder Jordana Bragg. Held at meanwhile gallery Level 2, 99 Willis Street, they discuss the issues around creating enduring artist space and treating art as a business. Technical issues have see us move from podcast to text format for this month. 

Jo: Can I start by just saying that it’s so cool that you’ve set up Meanwhile. I love sitting on these cushion works [by George Banach-Salas]. That’s one thing I love about artist-led spaces: that things are done differently.

Jordana: Thanks! To start, I see from your website that you have a crest and in that crest it says “use what you have”. Can you elaborate: what in Barbarian Productions have you learnt to use? Is it about using anything you can get your hands on to function?

Jo:   Yeah, use what is there rather than complaining about what isn’t there - or some mythical or imaginary thing that might be there in three years. What are the things that are literally all around you? Including people - their energies and interests - and the spaces around you. Like, before, you showed me the bank vault here at meanwhile. Exciting, so many ideas there. Artists are good at using spaces and finding value in things that might not be seen as having value or as beautiful by others.

Barbarian, we are a theatre based company, we use arts and creative techniques to have conversations that can be difficult. We recently worked with Jason Muir on Political Cuts where the political conversations aren’t oppositional; aren’t so singular - they can be multiple and work in lots of different ways. That we can bring more people into the conversation than just a group of white men talking about politics. That’s an example of work we like to do.

We’ve taken over an old bowling club in Vogelmorn and I guess that’s “use what you have” because it was an empty space there we’d walk past. We knew that there weren’t that many spaces for performing artists - that people were working out of their garages and living rooms. I have lots of friends who have the keys to their parents’ workplace. It gives me joy to know that **** offices after 6pm provide this kind of space!

The bowling club is a creative and community space, and I’m interested in this word ‘enduring’ because I’m hoping that this space might be more enduring than other places we’ve set up. But you only learn from setting things up.

Jordana: Was Barbarian set up in 2001?

Jo: Yes

Jordana: Because I wanted to ask about that - as someone who has set up space for creative use. Since 2001 what sorts of development has there been for Barbarian in having or finding physical space? What is the difference between 2001 and now?

Jo: I formed the company really to give myself a sense of security, because then it was only me. I was taking my solo shows around and just being Jo didn’t feel like it had much authority. When I called myself a company suddenly I was a thing, a legitimate body. But then earlier than that we were part of a space called WACT – we formed a charitable trust in the late 90s. Wellington Artists Charitable Trust. There was a space opposite Te Papa where a dance school used to be. It was a huge open floor space and about nine artists took it over: Rachel Davies, Loren Taylor, Taika Waititi, myself, Adam Gardiner, a bunch of us. We were really terrified to take it over because of the responsibility of it. We signed a lease and all had to provide $50 a week rent, which was really so much then with no income. But we set it up and ran this beautiful space and there was a studio next door where cool musicians played. And then yeah those buildings got knocked down but it was an interesting experiment. We were scared but we did it and were very proud. Then a lot of that energy went into the beginning of Toi Poneke, the arts centre, which was not a space that worked for us.

But going back to your question, the company went from being me to being about other people, working with others and now we are about growing other people as well - helping artists grow sustainable careers, which I am passionate about. I feel tired of having poor conversations with my colleagues. I feel tired of us bemoaning that. I think there are many things we can do to improve that situation and advocate for more support. Does that answer the trajectory question? It’s been long and slow in a way. Where do you feel with your trajectory?!

Jordana: Oo! I think we’ve had an interesting history so far. We started last July and were originally based at 35 Victoria Street (next to the police station), which was also an interesting location. But the idea of enduring was not something we were ever thinking of - hence naming ourselves Meanwhile. We were very aware that the physical space we held was indeterminate, we were not sure how long it would last. We were making it up as we went along but, as you say, we gave ourselves a name and that amplified our purpose and didn’t make it about our singular personhood as much.

In February 2017 we were told our original space was being sold on and we had to quickly think about whether we could or wanted to find a new space. But we had already done something that was beneficial for Meanwhile, but not so beneficial for us as co-founders, which was an open call-for proposals - right before we found out we had to leave. So we felt dedication to those who had visited the space in 2016, our studio artist’s and those who’d applied. Seeing that interest, that was scary for a time and I guess we have hit a few speed bumps along the way.

Jo: I like the idea of an entity where all the energy is going towards that and the proposals -but then there’s the practical thing that personally we don’t always have the space to cope with it.

Jordana: The point of naming the gallery was that it becomes bigger than ourselves and it did snowball rather quickly, which was fantastic, people were very keen to get involved. We operate as a gallery and studio space, that’s very important to us as a model. The maximum amount of studio artists we’ve had has been 15 people at one time, helping to cover the costs.

Jo: So the artists who use the studio…

Jordana: …pay a portion of the rent and expenses, yes.

Jo: That’s a really cool model, but its unusual because I find that funders are keen to support lots of venues or nice spaces that people can come into that look good, that flashy side of art, which is cool but there are other spaces that are actually about making work and they’re not so keen to support those spaces.

What’s happened in the performing arts is that there are a lot of different venues that have been built and set up but they don’t really fit our needs as a performing artist. Toi Poneke is a really great building and its good for ongoing organisations like DANZ, Shakespeare Globe, Arts Access, but definitely for us as performing artists the rooms aren’t big enough and also the bookings preclude full time usage because they are used for other weekly events.

So, when we set up at the Bowling Club I was very clear that for performing arts bookings we needed to keep the rent accessible, which we have done, even though we could be charging more for the space. And two, that we don’t allow anything else in during the 9 to 5 hours  - well, we do occasionally if we don’t have any rehearsals in there, but we don’t allow regular events to book in there. We do have a hall next door which can in fact be booked in for events by the hour.

I find often, that in designing new building, eg. new events space they try to be everything for all people and they end up not meeting the needs of artists - however much consultation there seems to be. So we have a lot of large event venues in Wellington but artists can’t afford to use them.

Jordana: One thing that I’m grappling with as well - which you mention in the Spinoff interview as well I read - is that to create an enduring space you need people who are willing to drive it. There’s an element of self-sacrifice to it, which sounds kind of gross! I mean, it’s a lot to do this sometimes.

I was wondering your views on starting to see it as a business, because that’s something that we’re sort of looking at here. Taking it away from the personal, branding and making it ‘professional’. I resisted the idea of business for a long time with the original meanwhile because I found it difficult to balance friendship and professionality, as a co-founder.

What do you think about turning it into a business? I was reluctant but then I recognised that if I kept up that reluctance there wouldn’t be anything to be reluctant about, because there would be no structure and it would fall apart.

Jo: Yeah that’s right. There are words we have different emotional reactions to them - ‘business’ is one of those.

Jordana: They just don’t teach you that at art school either. Nobody ever said ‘this is a business’, but of course when you put art into the world pretty much everything is, including spaces like this.

Jo: I don’t know if it should be taught at school or not. I definitely agree that its missing and that when we come out of institutions I see in the performing arts that people can be enthusiastic about being a star but they don’t know how to run themselves as a business. Personally I’m not scared of that word – I’m not saying you are – but I’m fine with it, whether it means infrastructure or organisation. It’s like that word economics, ‘how do you run this?’

Artists are also very practical people so, how do we provide what we need to survive? Whether that’s food, or somewhere to stay; how can we set up our place so we can do what we want to do and don’t have those stresses? I just think: find ways to take those financial stresses off of yourself because they tax your mental bandwidth – they are tiring. There’s a great book called Scarcity that talks about how your capacity is limited when you’re under stress. When you’re under financial stress it really limits your capacity to be the full creative person you want to be.

I see it as a real lack and I’m advocating to council at the moment that they do something to support the arts and how we develop ourselves as businesses – maybe we need another word. Artists are poor, and why are they always poor? In this ‘creative city’ why aren’t we putting some infrastructure in the same way we support I.T.? It’s like you have an awesome space like Creative HQ, “that sounds like my place! I’m a creative artist!” but it’s not my place it’s for I.T., and that’s cool but why not support also how the arts grow and develop?

I want something that helps us grow our businesses the way, our way, we need to set them up. I sometimes go to these business courses and personally I sometimes feel that I’m different, that I don’t quite fit into the model. The course leaders keep saying “well, I don’t know how it works in the arts”. That’s what I think we should really get some support around and advocate for – and help each other - around.

Images: Michael McDonald

On taking care of each other with Herbee Bartley and Peter Deckers

“I saw graduates floating about trying to find a voice and using all their actual creative energy to survive. There was hardly any support.” Peter Deckers

‘As long as it’s an experience that fulfils who you are, or your heart. I love Grace Jones quote “If the fuck don’t feel right don’t fuck it!” … If it doesn’t feel solid, or feel right or doesn’t resonate with who you want to be or have been, don’t do it for the sake of it.” Herbee Bartley

In this pod discussion at a monthly gathering for artists across all disciplines interested in working outside conventional venues we hear from producer Herbee Bartley (Massey College of Creative Arts Pasifika Advisor and co-founder Kava Club) and ‘jewellery activist’ Peter Deckers (Handshake) talk on creating artist support networks beyond institutions, mentoring, current arts sector fatigue around PR and fundraising and seeding artist-run collectives rather than becoming big bodies.

The next Urban Dreams Monthly in Wellington is Tuesday 19 September 12.30pm at meanwhile gallery Level 2, 99 Willis Street. In conversation Jordana Bragg and Jo Randerson. on "owning It: creating enduring artist-run spaces".

On Mana Whenua with Liz Mellish at the Wharewaka

If art has a role to play in creating public space, how might it better acknowledge the ground on which it takes place? Its environment, its heritage, its politics. How might it more deeply offer alternatives to the treatment of land as an exchangeable commodity?  In this short lunchtime conversation at the Wharewaka on Wellington’s waterfront we start this discussion with Liz Mellish on the meaning of mana whenua, the role of Te Atiawa ki te Whanganui a Tara (the people who lived around the harbour) and ways artists might better work with mana whenua.  “Sometimes it feels a bridge too far for people,” says Liz, “and in our country it shouldn’t be like that, it should be easy.”

Liz Mellish is a director of the Wharewaka and Mana Whenua o Poneke, chair of Palmerston North Maori Reserves Trust and member of Urban Dream Brokerage’s Wellington advisory panel. She is in conversation with Letting Space’s Mark Amery.

This is the first of a series of planned recorded monthly conversations in Wellington conducted by Letting Space’s Urban Dream Brokerage service, with support from Wellington City Council and Wellington Community Trust. They are recorded over lunches open to all attend which aim to support artists across disciplines playing an active role in the city outside of conventional venues.